Flight numbers.
Speed | Glide | Turn | Fade
The need-to-know stuff:
- Speed refers to the pace at which a disc must fly to perform as intended.
- Glide refers to a disc’s innate disposition to remain airborne.
- Turn refers to a disc’s backhand, left-to-right movement.
- Fade refers to a disc’s backhand, right-to-left hook.
Here’s how I see ‘em …
WAY too many disc golfers treat flight numbers like they’re wicked – like they’re the product of a corrupt system, in some way. As such, to not publicly bash on them or refuse to use them for guidance when shopping for new plastic is to feed the “machine” running the entire industry.
I don’t subscribe to this mentality.
Click here for details.
The skinny of my argument is that flight numbers are great for newbie disc golfers – or even seasoned disc golfers looking for general direction with a new or unfamiliar manufacturer’s lineup. No, they might not make the most sense for a lifelong veteran, but that’s okay …
They’re hardly an exact science.
I look to ‘em when needed; I disregard ‘em when they’re not.
Simple enough.
My biggest gripe against them, however, comes from the differences in flight paths a single mold can provide when offered in various plastic types. I get it: From run to run, disc variations are hard to predict – flight numbers would be all but impossible to adjust for something like this.
But from polymer to polymer?
Stability trends hold true:
- The baseline stuff is more understandable.
- The middle-tier stuff is fairly straight-flying.
- The premium, top-of-the-line stuff is overstable.
A mold’s flight numbers should account for this.
For example, have you ever nabbed a Champion Teebird after seeing a guy like Garrett Gurthie throw one on Disc Golf Network coverage? Because if you have, I hate to break it to you …
You’re in for a BIG disappointment.
Because for as acrobatic in the air as that thing is for Double-G, for the vast majority of amateur arms, it’s soaring like a weak-sauce Firebird – forget about any of that out-of-the-box flip you were hoping for when it arrived on your front doorstep. Assuming you can’t live without the in-hand feel of a Teebird, what you’re wanting is a DX or Pro version of the fairway driver.
And yet, for ALL three, the flight numbers remain unchanged …
7 | 5 | 0 | 2
I’ve had the same issue with the Sidewinder.
Potential roller disc?
Sure, I’ve seen it. At the same time, I’ve also had ‘em behave with the beef of a Destroyer. With so many factors at play, unfortunately, you can’t be certain about what you’ll get. As a buyer, all you can do is make an educated buying decision based on what you know to be true …
Plastic type (always) plays a role.
This isn’t just an Innova thing, either.
Pick a manufacturer – ANY manufacturer …
You’ll find more of the same.
An ever-present constant within the disc-flying formula?
Plastic type.
*** End of Rant ***
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Great article. 100% correct on that champion tee bird. It was actually the first disc I ever bought and so freaking overstable. Even after several years of improvement there’s still no flip to it at all. I think plastic choice is even more important than weight although I’m very conscious of both. For me star seems to be the perfect blend. I am confused on speed though. I always heard and believed it was the speed in which the disc needs to be thrown to achieve the other numbers. There is a video of Dave Dunipace saying that speed is not how fast it needs to be thrown but the discs ability to cut through the air. He also states that all of the other numbers are only relative to other discs in its class.
I can’t speak to what Dave has said (or continues to say) about “speed,” but what you’ve understood is what I’ve always understood – and I believe it to be the general consensus within the disc golf community, as well. And I don’t even want to think about speed in relation to the other discs in it’s speed-class, because who on earth has the time to think of discs in that kind of comparative light? Good gravy, that’d be maddening …
I think our definition works fairly well – and most seem to think of speed in the same light.
Innova does this sometimes, but the ratings often still don’t seem to reflect how big the difference can be.
Also what’s with the anti-leftyism?
Turn isn’t a disc’s backhand left-to-right movement; it’s the left-to-right movement on a disc thrown with clockwise spin.
Ah, didn’t know Innova had done this before!
Very cool 🙂
Any examples?
Also, we live in a right-hand, back-hand world …
Sorry!
Traditional Star Tern is stamped -3/+2 turn/fade. The new Innova Tern bar-stamp Champ runs are stamped -2/+2. I find both accurate.
btw, as a 70-year-old slow arm using ultralight drivers, I love that those new Champ runs include 130-Class Destroyer, Tern, Shryke, Thunderbird, and Valk—molds I’ve never seen in that weight/plastic before.
Purple, you could check out Dino Discs, as well.
For the light-weight plastic, I mean.
It’s all 120- and 130-class discs.
They’re marketed for children, but I know plenty of adults who throw them, as well.
Easy to find, at least.
I’ve gotten some for grandchildren, and threw a few times for them to demonstrate they can fly like golf discs, not toys. But upper 130g’s seem to be where I hit the diminishing returns curve—currently 135g is the lowest weight I throw (but that point was once in the 150s, then 140s…).
But did you know several of their discs are made from old ABC Discs molds? The Brontosaurus is the ABC Flying Squirrel, which was always my favorite understable mid. They went out of business in 2012, about the time I started seriously down-weighting, so bought out Infinite’s remaining stock of ‘Star’ mid-150g’s (five, so, at 70, have a lifetime supply! 😎).
Still see ABC Flying Squirrels occasionally in ‘Champ’ with the great Big Squirrel stamp but too heavy for me.
Somewhat unrelated, but I’d love to know …
At 70 years old, how many rounds do you get in in a week?
Awesome stuff!
(thanks for all of your detailed comments – our readers appreciate them, I’m sure)
I played both stick and disc golf over the years but, despite buying way too many discs, never enough of either to get beyond the recreational “at least I didn’t embarrass myself” level. In 2017 we retired for the 2nd time (1st was from the Air Force in 1996), and I planned to play a lot more golf.
So, we sold the big house in Colorado, moved and downsized to a small house in Washington, purposefully near a small college (Mrs. Purple worked there in the late 80’s; location had been our favorite AF assignment)—and accidentally near the college’s disc golf course (coincidentally on open space carved from their old nine-hole golf course I’d played decades earlier, but which was decommissioned in 2010 and opened for disc golf in 2016).
Now, pretty much every other day, I walk 10 minutes to my home course (cart trailing behind like a big friendly puppy) and play a couple hours of disc golf. It’s a shortish 9 holes suiting my slow arm (longest hole, 400 ft), with alt tees for the 2nd time around (and sometimes a 3rd, depending on how I feel).
First couple of years here I played nearly every day (before realizing my back does better with a day off in between), and becoming if not *good,* at least *consistent.* So, disc golf 3-4 times a week; stick golf 3-4 times a year. And 2-3 times a month, will DG on consecutive days, second day taking it easy and carrying one of my three small bags (pre-packed w/7-8 discs, either all-MVP, all-Prodigy, or all-Vibram—super-hard to replace in my weights, thus the loss-prevention strategy).
Second topic, a correction: it’s the Dino Discs *Brachiosaurus* that’s the ABC Flying Squirrel mold (my 12-year-old grandson would never forgive me for getting that wrong!). Yesterday while checking out Black Friday prices, I noticed Infiniti still has 24 Flying Squirrels left in stock, in lightish 160-class weights (some in glow, all with the big grinning squirrel stamp). If anyone’s looking for Christmas presents, that’s a great disc for adult beginners.
Third topic, yes, I do tend to run on, don’t I? (as I’m currently demonstrating 😁) I assure you I ruthlessly edit my business writing, usually cutting it back to a tight half the words of my quick first drafts. But I’m retired and don’t have to do that anymore! But I will try to restrain myself a little.
Now, out to the course for a couple rounds, and perhaps again tomorrow with a small bag (Vibram’s turn in the rota and I always enjoy that).
Katana: 13/5/-3/3 Champion: 13/5/-2/3
Shryke: 13/6/-2/2 Champion: 13/6/-1/2
Tern: 12/6/-3/2 Champion: 12/6/-2/2
Love it!
Somebody knows what’s up …
You love to see it 🙂
I have a 138g Star Shryke on order—first time it’s been released in that low a weight. It’s stamped 13/6/-2/2 but we’ll see.
The first Innova disc brochure I got in October of 2005 had different flight numbers for champion and pro plastic! Only slightly different, not as different as they should have been, but the idea has been around for longer than people realize.
Thanks, Stew!
I was in the game back in 2005, but admittedly, I never got my hands on any kind of “disc brochure.”
Appreciate the tip!
As a Teebird thrower, there’s more stability differences WITHIN the premium plastic types than there is between the different plastics. Given the same shape, same weight, a new DX doesn’t fly different enough from a champ to warrant any change in flight numbers. It’s like a 0.2 at most. And each plastic is subject to differences in dome and parting line height. If you got a TB with more than ZERO high speed turn out of the box, most likely it’s domey or has a low parting line. That’s not on the plastic, so much as a byproduct of how the molds get fed and how the discs get treated during cooldown. If they get popped out early they tend to dome up as they cool and the parting line droops a little, following the curve of the dome. If they get left in the molds longer while cooling, they come out truer to the shape of the mold because they were held in that position during shrinkage. None of the plastics are immune to this, and, in FACT, one upon a time, many of the older discs were actually made more overstable in baseline plastic by design, to give them more longevity, keeping them a viable option compared to the then still new urethane based candy plastics. Firebirds, Eagles and Teebirds in particular were more overstable in DX during some of the early CE runs.
The big problem with flight numbers, and why everyone rags on them is because the system itself is inherently wrong. Not because sometimes they’re a little off. The system is just flawed as hell. First, there should be at least 2 numbers per stat to represent beginner and advanced arm speeds. Speed? Any disc only goes as fast as its thrown. This should be replaced with range. Glide? It’s industry standard to label faster discs with greater glide, which is exactly wrong. Glide is primarily a fiction of the volume of air under the disc, which goes down(with glide) as rims get wider. The more blade-like your disc is, the less glide plays a part of its flight, and the more ballistic it acts. Putters should be labeled with the highest glide numbers, mids and fairways after that, and distance drivers should be labeled with the lowest glide numbers. They know that, but it’s a selling point to tout your newest, fastest disc as having MORE of something, so they lie. Turn and fade are generally right, but, again, need 2 numbers each, for beginner and advanced arm speeds.
Thanks for the lengthy, detailed comment, William!
I appreciate it, man 🙂
(as do the rest of G.S. readers, I’m sure)
BTW, LOVE the idea of “range” for flight numbers …
Feels like there could be something to that.
Isn’t speed really just a beginner/intermediate/advanced spectrum? A 14 speed would be advanced while a 7 speed beginner. But then it’s not really a skill thing, it is really just how strong/powerful do you do you need to throw to get the next 3 numbers to engage properly. Right? I am by no means close to an advanced player, I might be considered intermediate on my very best days – but guess what? I can generate a ton of whip/snap/power with my forehand and backhand – but I still suck!
So I think the current “Speed Rating” is fine as long as people know what it is. It isn’t how fast the disc will go.
So maybe just change it to Power? I don’t know. Not a mountain i’m gonna die on today.
Only hole in this argument is the “beat-in”.
Should the flight numbers be for out the box flight or seasoned flight? And those different plastics season differently.
I see the numbers there as the intended flight path, or, what the disc is “supposed to do”
That being said, the manufacturers could most definitely be more transparent about the difference in plastics and the effect they have on the performance of the disc. Instead, they push, push, push the premium plastics with little to no warning about the changes to stability.
Yes, the flight numbers system is flawed but still great to have. It’s that marketing that’s truly misleading.
Oh, wow …
Do lots of people think that way?
It’d never occurred, to me, and I’m embarrassed to admit it:
Flight numbers MIGHT be more about intended flight path than the out-of-the-box flight path.
(curls up into a ball – haha)
I’m no expert but it seems like what he’s trying to say is that the speed rating is not only the discs ability to reach a high speed but to decelerate slower maintaining its speed longer due to its aerodynamic profile. I wish they would just put an actual speed rating in miles per hour that you have to throw that disc at to activate the other numbers. I know some of the old vibrams used to have that stamped on the bottom of the disc and I thought it was really helpful
Oh, that’d be cool …
Getting that number to be accurate would be a NIGHTMARE, though.
And most disc golfers don’t have a speed gun, but hey …
An excuse to buy one, maybe. Haha.
While a speed gun would be great, and I do have one, it wouldn’t be necessary in the scheme of things. If you knew that to get the flight numbers you had to throw a disc at say 50 miles an hour and then you throw that disc and get the flight shape suggested on the disc then you know for the most part you are at or right around 50 miles an hour. If you don’t get the flight based on the disc numbers then obviously you know you haven’t achieved your speed yet and need to throw it faster or drop down in disc speed. It’s definitely not perfect and probably subject to some error but I think most players have no idea how fast they’re throwing and at least it would give them some ballpark idea
Agreed!
Gotta nab a speed gun now …
Where’s a copy when you need one? Haha
This is why I tend to carry a champion version, star version and a halo version of the valkyrie and destroyer in my bag they can handle a ton of situations with only “two” models
And the Halo would be for the most overstable of duties, correct?
Has that been your experience?
Amen.
Great minds think alike, eh, TreeSlayrr?